7.15.2009

please advise

(note: I've edited this because I really don't like having information about someone else's brat on my site. If you didn't get a chance to read the original, let me know, I'll be glad to send it to your email)

Let me start by saying:
Nakeds. We all have one. Some of us have innies and some of us have outties and we all have boobs and hair patches of varying sizes and locations. Big effing deal.
Jake knows all the private parts (everything covered by a bathing suit) and how to honor his and respect everyone else's.

There is a little girl who is giving all sorts of mixed messages to my boy. She talks about her vagina (she calls it a peach), she lifts her shirt and asks Jake to lift his so they can touch bellies, she loves to see the boys' butts, she pinches nipples and offers hers to be pinched back and she's been trying to take the boys under the kitchen table while she does this.

I almost don't give a rat's ass about any of this. They are three year olds that spend a lot of time together and that's what three year olds do and lucky for moms everywhere three year olds also talk about every damned thing they did during the day, especially fun stuff like belly rubs and boobie pinches and when I ask Jake if he has ever touched her vagina he says no and when I ask if she has touched his penis he screams NOOOOO! because that's what I taught him to do if anyone ever touches his penis.

I tell Jake that it isn't nice to pinch butts or boobs or show bellies and his answer is always "she wants me to but I said no" or "I didn't but she did" and I tell him to be sure it stays that way. I tell him it's okay to wonder what a vagina looks like and it's okay for a girl to wonder what a penis looks like but it's not okay to look and touch one anothers. And he understands that.

I have spoken to all adults involved in this, and everyone is aware there is a problem. These children are not left unsupervised, but like adults, kids know how to sneak a pinch or a slap or a feel in no time flat. The mother of this girl has been unwilling to see that there is a major problem

I feel like it's important to mention that this little girl dances like she belongs on Univision.
Real Sabado Gigante stuff.
It's hard to look at.
Sad.
She is tanned.
She has a haircut that rivals anything I've ever done with my mop.
I see where she is headed.

4.25 am today Jake runs out of his bedroom upset because
"mickey wanted to be like his friend donald so he didn't wear any pants and when he went out to play with goofy and donald and daisy and minnie he got in trouble because minnie saw his penis and now they can't play together because minnie's mom said so".

I told him that Mickey was wrong to leave his pants in the Clubhouse and he shouldn't be running around with his penis out and hopefully Minnie's mom explains to Minnie that if anyone ever shows her his penis again she is to go tell a grownup and it was only a dream and sometimes dreams can be scary or upsetting but it's all over now.

That's a little different than what's going on in his life, but I'm sure it's tied together.

Am I handling this right?

Should I be more uptight? Less?
This little girl will most likely be out of here by fall so I'm thinking to just let it drop and hope it doesn't go any further than it does but Ack! I don't think anything of a sexual nature involving children should just be hoped away, no matter how age appropriate.
I'm confident that the hugs and kisses and peeks and touches between the two (and the other boys at daycare) are completely innocent but it upsets me to think that a mom thinks my son is invading her daughter's personal space.
That's my big issue here. The rest of it is fluff. Developmental fluff. Ohgod. Fluff is such a bad choice of word. The rest is fringe. Developmental fringe. I don't want anyone thinking that my child is hurting someone. I want to be sure we are all clear on everything.
It bothers me that I'm thinking of a little girl as being "fast". That I'm picturing her sweet little manicured hands on my child's body. So gross and disturbing.

I know that Jake is being raised in a house that maybe has a little more openness about penises and vaginas and boobs than some other kids are, but the only openness that is present at home is the fact that girls have vaginas to pee out of and boys have penises to pee out of and mommies have bigger boobs than daddies because they make milk to feed the babies in them.
Jake is allowed to touch his penis all he wants, in his bedroom. He knows that he isn't to touch it in front of anyone else and no one should touch thier penis or vagina in front of him.
Jake knows that no one else other than a doctor, mommy, and daddy should ever touch his penis. Not even if he is at a relative's house getting a bath. He can go unwashed down there for a day and it's not going to fall off.
He knows nothing about penetration or any other creepo sexy stuff. I don't even think that he thinks that babies drink out of boobs, just that milk is made there and then babies get bottles. I didn't have to explain to him that babies come out of vaginas, thanks to the miracles of modern science and the almost-faded 4 inch scar I have on my belly.

So what? What do I do?
My poor kid is having dreams about Mickey's penis.
How do I get through this without giving my kid some weird complex that lands him living in my basement when he's 40 years old because he is so afraid of mouse vaginas and pantsless ducks that he's afraid to do anything that involves taking off his shirt in front of aggressive women?

If I have one goal in parenting it's this: I don't want to be responsible for my boy growing up to be a sexless Dungeons and Dragons weirdo.

Tell me, how can I be sure that won't happen?

43 degrees {comments}:

Tiffany said...

It's so hard isn't it! Jordan doesn't really have problems like this, because if anything, it's her that wants to come out of the bathroom after using the toilet and conveniently leave her pants and underwear behind. As for being all touchy-feely - not really. She just likes being naked.

I'm a little confused about why the other mother is mad at you. Is it just because Jake knows the names of stuff? Because I'd be more worried about her little girl trying to lure boys off to check out her bits and pinch her nipples. Maybe the mom needs to talk to her daughter about keeping things private.

It's hard though, when others don't have the same ideals as you. The thing that annoys me? Anytime we're at my MIL's house and one of the kids ends up without a shirt or pants - THAT's when the camera comes out. She thinks naked kids are just adorable. I think it's gross.

Brandie said...

I don't know anything about parenting...but I think openness is good. He won't end up a D&D weirdo (that was hilarious, btw). he's informed and knows right and wrong. he seems like a really smart kid. you are doing a great job with him!

David said...

There's nothing wrong with being a sexless teen who plays Dungeons & Dragons. A lot of nice people were that way once. [awkwardly adjusts collar & clears throat.]

Jenn@ The Crazies said...

Oh, I have to say even w/ 3 kids we never had this issue... my daycare lady was a friend and she always nipped it in the bud before it ever got to this point. I think the daycare lady needs to approach the mom and ask her to have a talk with her inappropriate daughter, no matter how old she is. I know its part of growing up and you obviously have done your part in explaining things the right way to your son but I dont think that her mom has done the same.

Amy Jo said...

Yikes. And double yikes. I wish I had some sage words for you, but I'm kind of stumped on this one. Good luck.

Domestic Goddess said...

I agree with Jenn. The daycare lady needs to tell the other mom that HER daughter is initiating this.

Also? Not everyone who plays D&D is sexless. I managed to have kids, after all.

MaBunny said...

Good luck with that. Although it is pure curiosity that causes 3 yr olds to act like that - there are still limits. That little girl needs to be taught some limits which she obviously isn't. I was pointed at and ridiculed when my daughter was 3 or4 yrs old. She had been watching FRIENDS tapes with me - where Phoebe has her twins, Nicole just thought it was funny - but one day at school laid on her back, put a doll between her legs and screamed like she was giving birth! I was horrified. We had a talk about it and she understood that some kids might not be quite ready for that.
You sound like you are doing fine with Jake - but in my opinion, that little girl needs a little reigning in! Good luck!

Jay Ferris said...

Shit. When you get answers to any of these questions, let me know.

Poolside with the Girls said...

I am a little worried that boys tend to get blamed for this sort of thing before girls do. Maybe talk to the daycare again about this issue. Why is Miss Missy allowed to have "alone" time with the boys? I think they should keep a closer eye on her. Kids will be kids but I'm paranoid and I'm afraid Jake is going to be the bad guy here should the other mom decide to make a stink or sue or whatever. What's that saying? Sometimes the best defense is a good offense? I'm not sporty so I'm not sure that made sense. Anyway, another idea is to tell Jake to tell the daycare person (whoever is in charge) the next time Miss Missy asks Jake out on a date under the table. Ummmm...something isn't right here. My gut tells me that Jake is going to take the fall if Miss Missy's mom flips her lid. Just my 2 cents...I'm paranoid, did I mention that? This is a tough one. Did you refer to the child care manual that came with Jake when he was born? I lost both of mine. I'm no help!
One last gross thought...forgive me...Any chance she's "doin'" stuff with someone...say... older than her? That's my other fear. She's learning this from an older child or someone else. I don't know! Bleck!

M.J. said...

It makes me suck the way girls are sexualized at such a young age...it's sad. Why do some moms/dads seem to think this is OK.

Tranquility said...

I can't believe the daycare hasn't taken issue with the little girl's behavior. What's with the nipple pinching and the tummy touching? What in the world is going on in that little girl's household???

Silly Swedish Skier Says So said...

Just by being aware that its a normal part of sexual development and being able to talk to Jake about it puts you ahead as far as parenting. Sounds like you're doing a great job and doing what normal parents do which is worry. The only part I found concerning at all was that Jake describes that he doesn't want to do this. Any sexual play should be mutual and without power differentials.
I wonder if it is mutual and Jake just knows he's not supposed to do this and so tells you he doesn't want to? Could it be that the two are mutually playing this way and the little girl tells her mom the same thing about not wanting to? Or maybe the mom's just uncomfortable around you for some reason you'll never know, like you look like her ex sister-in-law or something. Or maybe she's just a jerk and will disappear in the fall.

Silly Swedish Skier Says So said...

Now people are going to think I'm a freak cuz no one seems to know that there's a part of sexual development that takes place in childhood. Oh well.

Amanda said...

I'd talk to who's in charge at daycare. The little girl's mom needs to know that there are other kids there not comfortable with what their daughter is asking them to do with her. I too fear that one of the boys will end up taking the fall because of how our society thinks. But, the girl's mom needs to hear it form the daycare, not another of the parents. That way it comes off as a more neutral opinion.

I understand there's sexual development and natural curiosity in childhood, but this little girl's persistence is what is disturbing to me. Makes a person wonder what she's exposed to at home.

susan said...

You post this on the very day I decided to have a minor freak out because when asked, a certain three year old couldn't accurately determine whether or not the very dear friend visiting us was of the boy/girl variety. "Waurie's just Waurie, Mommy." he finally told me. And went on to finish his explanation of how his bed is his charging station and that's why he has so much power when he gets up in the morning. He just doesn't care. And no amount of trying to sit down with him to have the conversation of our differences is going to make him care.

All that said to say this: you are an incredibly mom, an incredibly smart (book and not-book) woman, and you are doing exactly what is right for Jake. Jacob. Whatever. You are doing exactly what your boy needs. What sucks is that someone else is so insecure in her own parenting that she feels the need to scrutinize and compare your job to hers and make it so that she comes out "better" in her mind. And by someone else I mean that other mom.

In my opinion, the best way to clear the air is to have some sort of conversation with the other mom. I don't have the balls to initiate such a conversation, but you might. Second best option? Ask your daycarelady if she thinks the three of you need to have a convo and let her (DCL) take the lead. Meanwhile, just keep repeating the mantra "ages and stages" over and over and over to yourself and remember that what causes him nightmares this week will be replaced by something else in a week or two. As long as you are certain there is no greater harm being done, there will (should?) be no lasting scars.

Shelly Overlook said...

OMG, this is freaking incredible. Poor Jake, already the victim of some girl's wily ways. I can't believe it's invading his sleep. Poor guy.

Lana said...

could the other mom be embarrassed and not have the first clue how to approach you? she really has no reason to be mad at you.

it sounds to me like what you tell your son is the appropriate amount of info. and he has your support to help take in all that info, which is way more than a lot of other kids have.

susan said...

Oh, and I meant to add to the end of the first paragraph of my book up there ^^ that it probably isn't you who should be worrying about the D&D nerdboy. I think they are born that way. Sigh.

Heather! said...

Even at 5 my girl doesn't get the why behind what we tell her about her privacy, etc. I can't imagine my 3yo or even C at that age really getting what the hubub is about. It sounds like he's picking up on the fear and failing at keeping his boundaries, i.e. the little girl won't stop asking. This happened to E (3yo) at preschool--there was a boy with Down Syndrome who was very touchy, hair pulling, in your face and it freaked her out and the kid's TSS was lazy and the school was all accomodating to the kid and not her. It's actually one of the reasons we left the school---the boundary intrusions were beyond my comfort level and I hated seeing her flinch around any other kids because of that.

My advice would be a straight up one on one with the DCP that this needs to stop. My guess is the other mom feels guilty or knows more about why her daughter is as curious/forward as she is.

so sorry!

susan said...

Also? "incredibly mom" = "incredible mom". I really should start proofreading before publishing.

anniegirl1138 said...

When a child starts having nightmares, it's probably time to let the daycare know that you are uncomfortable with what is going on because it seems that Jake is and is telling you so in his own 3 yr old way.

It doesn't have to be a big deal. Just tell them what's happening and that you think perhaps their should be more redirection when the girl starts up and that you'd even be okay with some separation - if you are indeed thinking about that.

This poor girl is clearly get wrong messages modeled for her at home but that shouldn't be Jake's problem.

Zip n Tizzy said...

This is why I won't let my boys around girls.
Ever.
(Kidding)
Everyone's already said what I've been thinking, but I'll just say one more time that I think you're handling it well.

Jori said...

I'm appalled at the little girls that shake their ass and wiggle their hips and get down and grind on the floor. I know THEY don't get it but it makes me blush and then get embarrassed that I'm thinking they're dancing in a sexual manner.

JT has finally eased off his penis, still thinks moms have butts and at least once every two weeks he goes for my boobs. We're making progress.

And you're doing great. C

Crystal said...

Oh Lora, You're doing so great. From what I have learned as a teacher is that some parents really over think things, and some not enough. It is a weird balance. But coming to terms with sexuality is a normal part of growing up, even though it is freaking you out a little (it freaks me out too!) I have been told that if I see a child touch themselves, not even to make a huge deal of it because it will only humiliate the parents. If it becomes an issue or if another child notices, then I interfere, but if no one knows or gets hurt, just to redirect the behavior.

As far as calling the vagina a Peach...that is a huge mistake. I was taught to call it by the clinical names so that if a child is abused and tells someone, we are all on the same page. Most likely a child will tell someone that isn't in the inner circle of whatever cutesy fruit or pocketbook it has been nicknamed. Ugh, that is just so gross. I want people's hands out of my pocketbook too! (as a side note, I am totally going to call it my pocketbook when I am with my girlfriends!)

carolyn said...

Hmmm. Read this last night and had to take a bit of time to digest and come up with my reply. Completely agree with others to involve daycare....at least to make them aware of what they may or may not already know.

Talking to the other mom if you're comfortable is another option (after you've talked to day care)- maybe in a non-threatening "hey, this stage of raising a 3 year old is a tough one....we're working on personal space and private parts at our house too" That way you open communication with her and its clear that you know what's happening. Of course, my natural tendency would be to hope that she went away in the fall- but like you said, Philly's a small place.

Honestly, once daycare gets wind of the nipple pinching- I'd think some sort of action would have to follow. Better coming from you as a concern than from the floosy's mom.

Good Luck- and know that despite this little blip, you are an AMAZING MOTHER!!!

HG said...

Guh - this is a tough one. I think that you are handling it just right; however, I do agree with other posters that you may want to involve the daycare at this point to ease Jake's distress over the situation.

Fraulein N said...

I think you're going about things the right way (it's great that you're teaching Jake about privacy without making him feel ashamed of his body!). I do think you should have a talk with the other mother, because who knows what the daughter's telling her, or how she's piecing it together in her head. Maybe you could set something up with the daycare teacher, so it doesn't seem like you're being accusatory (even though it seems like you have every right to be). That little girl may not be "fast," but her behavior is definitely crossing a line and needs to be stopped.

RuthWells said...

I'm really concerned that such a little girl has such an aggressive curiosity -- usually indicates that there's been inappropriate behavior towards the child from an adult (or older kid) in her life. Any way to get that issue into the conversation with day care?

As for Jake, you're doing the right thing -- keep it demystified, keep communication flowing. It's clear to me that the source of his anxiety is this little girl, not penises per se. Can he perhaps change day care classes?

Becca said...

Lora, I feel for you. I haven't been through this (thank god), so I have no idea how to help you.
But I know that what you are telling Jake is right and good. We taught our daughter penis & vagina too. (Of course my parents thought we were freaky for this.) I think that what you are teaching him will allow him to grow up with a healthy attitude about his body and about sex.
I just wonder where the teacher is during all of this.

Lizzi said...

This is a toughie. The fact that Jake's sleep is being interrupted by the situation would concern me. Who knows exactly why 3yos act the way they do but I think some school/parental dialogue is called for. Honestly, if I were in your position I don't know exactly what I'd say.

Jake is great, you are a great parent, and I'm sure he won't be in your basement in 37 years!

Holli said...

I think that what you have been telling him and what you are doing with your son is perfect... while reading your story I'm wondering why this little girl is fascinated by all of the boys body parts? What is she seeing at home (on TV or otherwise) that makes her THAT exploratative? (Is that a word..exploratative...oh well). Know what I mean? Seems odd. Curiosity is one thing but constant curiosity??

thelifeyouchoose said...

My first reaction was a bit more "what is going on in that girl's house?" than it probably should have been. But having been friends with victims of abuse, I can tell you they knew WAY too much WAY too soon and it seems like this girl might too.

But then my daughter doesn't pinch her nipples and want to rub bellies with anyone. at least not yet. But she could tomorrow and then all bets are off.

Seems like you've got it going on with the knowledge and manners aspects of these issues but I do agree that getting daycare involved and clearly stating that it is mutual or one sided (her side) might be a good idea in case other mother files some complaint against Jake. (you never want it to be your kid. ESPECIALLY when it is your kid.)

Lucy said...

First: I must have missed the original.

Second: It seems a little young to me for such exploration. Although, my children are much older I just don't remember the exploring at that age, well, to the extent you just described.

Third: the little girl seems to have the problem and her mother seems not to care.

Fourth: You cannot change other peoples behavior. Therefore, everything you are doing with Jake has been great. At this point the problem is with the other child and it seems there might be some serious issues with that child.

Fifth: At this point if it is possible I would steer Jake away from her just to avoid the situation and help with his sleep. Is there anyway to have the teachers separate them to a certain degree? I know that is hard in a preschool setting but since the mother refuses to work with you I would ask for them to be separated. I would just say that it has become detrimental to your child's well being and they need to be apart from each other until things settle down.

Good luck but know that you are doing things correctly, sometimes that just feels like it isn't enough and it is frustrating.

lacochran said...

I'm not a parent so feel free to dismiss my take.

It seems this girl is "sexualized" beyond a normal level (how she dances, etc.) and it makes me wonder what is happening at home with her. (Sad thought.)

Regardless, he is your kid and if you don't want him associating with her, limit the interaction. Just because he has a bad dream doesn't mean he's scarred for life.

Hillbilly Duhn said...

I think that it's normal, the way you're handling it. I think poor Jake's dreams are the cause of a pushy little girl and him knowing the rules. Trying to stay within the confines of the rules you set, yet curious but confused all at the same time, cause she offers up the curiosity.

But other then telling the other Mom, which you already did, there's nothing more you can do except reasure Jake and yourself by keeping them as seperate as possible. If that's a choice.

I've explained to my kiddo's in a similar way as you did about all that stuff.

It is after all scary shit when it comes down to it. It is indeed hard to figure out and handle. I think you did alright. I would have handled it in the same way should it have been me.

well read hostess said...

My comment just disappeared into the vapor.

I'll try again.

I don't think you're overreacting, and I'd tell you if I did. I hope to be able to come up with something pithy and articulate on this subject, but right now I'm just laughing about how much the phrase "Mickey coming out of the clubhouse" sounds like a euphemism for something really dirty.

I know. I'm a bad person.

blackbelt said...

I don't care about anybody's feelings or philosophy or rights or cultural differences or anything when it comes to protecting my child. I imagine you feel the same way.

I know you're the pro at this, not me, but I think that little girl is being raised in a WIERDO household with WIERDO behaviors. It doesn't have to be the criminal kind, just the overindulgent kind. We are very "free" in our household about our bodies but we are clear about boundaries and what is "at home" and what is for outside.

What you are describing doesn't sound like just developmentally appropriate curiosity. Some parents will not place boundaries, because that might stunt their child's personality and creativity. (eye roll)

I'd def'ly do everything I could to put a kabosh on that little girl's behaviors. I would also talk to J about that little girl making sad choices and her mom not being strong enough to set boundaries, or whatever words he understands. HE understands boundaries and stating that they don't will not mess him up but only strengthen him.

I'm not sure if this made sense.

nicole said...

i totally feel your pain! my 5 year old has been caught sneaking off to kiss her friends twice in the last month! ( i was actually going to email you to ask your "professional opinion" before I saw this). It makes me sick! Please tell me its normal.

Oh, and it has happened with one of her boy playmates & one of her girl friends

Cara said...

I agree with most you should bring this to the attention of the daycare teacher and /or director. They may be able to speak with the mother in a more neutral stand.
If you didn't get anywhere there then I think I would speak to the mother directly. Like you said he had a dream that upset him and it may be related to the issue he is having with this little girl.
I think it is normal for young kid to be affectionate, but this is a bit above and beyond. It's over the line.
I also agree that we should be open with our children to a certain extent depending on the age. I do not believe in giving body parts cute names, call it what it is.
I hope that this get better for you and Jake. I don't think you have much to worry about with him, it a blessing that he keeps you informed on what is going on with him.

Lisa said...

Wow. What a position to be in! The only thing I can suggest is to keep on doing what you are doing and (this is happening at daycare, right? If I read this correctly...) can you ask the daycare person to separate them? It is clear that Jake is doing the right thing but little miss-wasn't-taught-anything-about-boundaries is really pushing it. And unfortunately, who's going to be pointed at as being in the wrong? The boy or the girl? I say the boy - which totally sucks. If her silly mother is turning things around (and by the way, what the heck is she being exposed to that she's acting out this way?? I live in the caribbean so I have a different unfettered view of children seeing their naked/ semi naked parents. Up to a certain age - i.e. age of awareness, I don't do naked anymore but underwear and occasional "whoops I saw mommy's bits" is no biggie for me - but I'm digressing)and not addressing a clear and present danger (maybe she might unfortunately encounter another child like her with no sense of boundaries. Gosh, I hope not) it may be best to subtract your son from that equation. True, he can't run everytime one of her shows up, but coupled with the right attitude you've instilled in him, I say, he who runs today lives to fight another day (and by running here I mean cutting off contact with the little girl. I hope her mother grows a brain and soon!)

A Free Man said...

Speaking for the sexless D&D weirdos, sometimes we come out OK in the end.

Jayson said...

I resent the D&D comment.

Joe said...

I really wish I knew what to say. Unfortunately, the only thought that popped into my head was "parenting is hard." I really hope you're able to resolve the situation or that it (QUICKLY) resolves itself.